CTF map idea: vertical gameplay

Jorge | 2010-10-12 14:02

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Thinking about gameplay lately I noticed, how much higher and lower levels improve the fun in a map. One of the very few maps which go towards using both horizontal and vertical gameplay is nmp9, which is one of the oldest maps.

Therefore I'm just gonna throw the idea in here: How about a CTF map with vertical gameplay? Would of course have to be a sci-fi map, I could imagine some duomo-like design. The basic idea would be both flags approximately next to each other quite at the bottom of the map. It must be arranged in a way that you can't reach one flag from the other, but instead have to go downwards to some teleporter-array bringing you back up on top of the map.

An advantage would be that there would be absolutely no need to make such a map symmetric, as the bases are next to each other. This would allow some interesting designs.

I hope I could make my idea clear, if not feel free to tell me. I don't know if my idea is worth looking into or even feasible. As I said, I'm just throwing this in here as I'm no mapper at all, but if anyone wants to try such a design, I'd be happy to think about it more detailed.

Edit: Very poor drawings added in a comment.

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Comments

Suicizer | 2010-10-12 16:26

It's a nice idea wich many mappers has been tried to reach. Too bad, its not that easy to create a map with horizontal and vertical gameplay, but still nice looking and playable...

P.S.
I'll give it a try either, but there are still some other projects wich deserve to be finished either :)!

Edit:
Maybe you havent noticed, but some maps like tempest, bt_falls, recovery and redemptiom somehow already have a vertical gameplay (by using jumppads, teleports, etc)...

Windecker | 2010-10-12 23:20

I have always loved maps with lots of Z axis movement. It can really add to gameplay, allowing new ways to attack. Drop down on your enemies, or lose them over your head.

There was a map done in UT3, a CTF map, that featured two bases separated by a transparent wall, and to get to the other, you had to descend a great distance, and then ascend a great distance. ( again ) There were lots of elevators to aid movement though. Something Sauerbraten only has in Singleplayer.

None the less, jumppads, stairwells, and slopes can be used to the same effect.

As for your idea, with the teleporter array and whatnot, could you whip up an example map and attach it to the node? I'm curious of the idea.

BTW, to suicizer, Tempest has very little vertical movement, with the minor exception of the jumppads at either base. ( I don't remember the rest of the maps )

Jorge | 2010-10-14 07:57

I agree that it is difficult to create such a map when it's supposed to look nice and coherent. Plus gameplay-wise one has to assure scoring isn't too fast. That means the player would need to be forced to go upward, too. But on the other hand, such a map would be unique at the moment :)

@suicizer: the maps you mentioned have what I would call "optional vertical gameplay": you can move on the z-axis, but you don't have to. And most movement is still horizontal. I'm thinking of a more radical approach than that. Imagine orion stacked 5-10 times on top of each other, then you got the verticality I'm thinking of :)

@Windecker: I don't know UT3, let alone the map you mentioned. But that might probably be one way to make such a map. As for an example map: I'll see what I can do, but basically I was thinking about duomo here. Jumping down into the laser underneath the structure you get teleported back on top. I'd put the 2 flags down there on my "verticel" map und like 100 teleports (with alternating teledests) underneath them. Basically a surface, porting you back up. So you grab the flag in free fall, get teleported somewhere on top of the map and have to work your way down (and a little up, but mostly down) to the flags again.

As the flags would be located practically at the same place (there has be some spacing in between, else you'd grab the flag automatically after you scored), the map itself can be totally assymetric. The players would spawn randomly, like in non-CTF modes, and would all head to the same place, thus there might be some intense action.

Suicizer | 2010-10-14 16:44

sauerbraten isnt designed to have a lot of z-axis gameplay (just jump, teleport, jumppad and falling down)...
I think a map with a balanced z-axis and xy-axis gameplay, is the best compared to those who only have 1 of those axis gameplay. If you only got z-axis gameplay, it will be like jumppad/teleport spam everywhere. If you only got xy-axis gameplay, a map has a high chance to be some lame instactf campmap.

Jorge | 2010-10-14 21:00

You are right, however all the CTF maps we have only require minimal vertical movement. On some, like valhalla or recovery, you CAN move vertically quite a bit, but you DON'T HAVE to. I think a more vertical map can be done with only a handful strong jumppads and some stairs, ladders and ramps. That is, if the main direction you go is down, not up.

Well, whether such a vertical design is feasible or not: Putting the 2 flags next to each other while preventing that one can reach the one from the other (and instead would be teleported to the other side of the map) could also be an idea for other maps, not necessarily vertical designs.

Suicizer | 2010-10-14 22:50

I remember I made a map once (called "ogroseum", maybe you once have seen it on a server), wich had incredible much vertical gameplay like you are talking about. It was build up from pillars (similar to a pillar on akroseum) with (wooden) stairs around it, wich were in a spiral. It didnt had bad flow or gameplay, it just wasnt detailed enough and was missing some geometry at the lowest floor (wich was a flat sand-textured surface).
Lucky me, I backup every project I ever made, so I still got all files (from start till end, even tough I've never really ended the project. Else it would have been uploaded on quadropolis :P).

It's a long time ago since I started (and stopped), so please do not expect to much of it when it comes about detailing, lighting, geometry etc.
Take it as a rough sketch for your vertical-gameplay idea ("ogroseum" has been started like 6 a 7 months after I started playing Sauerbraten)...

http://i54.tinypic.com/6ntglx.jpg
and
http://i53.tinypic.com/335a877.jpg

Sorry for bad way of pasting the screenshots. The sceenshots are made right after I stopped with building on it...

P.S.
I think this map doesnt got bad vertical gameplay either (even tough it's a deathmatch map, I'm still planning to make a ctf map of it)!

http://www.quadropolis.us/node/1755

Chasester_aka_you | 2010-10-14 23:26

us links :)

Windecker | 2011-04-21 13:18

Do you have the ogz file for that vertical map of yours? It really caught my interest and I'd like to try it.

Suicizer | 2011-04-21 14:51

Yes I still got it, since I knew it would be needed by someone one day...

Here it is.

Please do me a favor and don't expect much of the geometry, neither of lighting or detailing. It's like 2,5 years ago since I made that map.

westjgames | 2010-10-15 05:29

You may be able to pick up on some ideas for vertical gameplay by playing Half Life 2: Lost Coast with commentary nodes enabled. It's a free download in Steam (It was really a concept demo for High Dynamic Range lighting) and has some really good points of what makes a good map. Also, it is kinda cool to play.
WestJGameS

afroninja | 2010-10-15 22:04

here is an example of a map with vertical-ish gameplay http://www.quadropolis.us/node/2203

Suicizer | 2010-10-16 01:04

not really true, because this map is more a conceptual map, instead of a real gameplay map (I know it once has been updated to a gameplay map, but it stays based on a map wich is more artistic, than really gameplay-designed)....

Jorge | 2010-10-16 00:36

As you, suicizer & afroninja, are giving nice examples of maps with some sort of vertical gameplay, but no CTF maps, I figured I couldn't explain my idea very well. So I gotta use my impressive drawing-skills, which - honestly - are way superior compared to my mapping skills:

This is what we have right now:
linear maps
triangle shaped maps
U-shaped maps
and very few assymetric maps which are not easy to balance (compare core_refuge old and new version)

Of course there is z-axis movement on most of them, but basically you move in the xy-plane mostly and the z-axis movement is optional. After all, the flags are on the same level. My idea would change that completely: truely vertical maps
Sure, you'd still move a lot in the xy-plane, but the basic direction is up or down.

Here I failed at drawing some 2-dimensionl and veeery basic geometric design ideas for a CTF map with vertical layout.

The "go up to score" idea is some sort of reverse flipper design. You move mostly upwards until you get to 2 jumppads at the uppermost platform. Then you jump into one of the tubes holding the flags and fall down to the bottom from where you have to work your way back up. Writing this text now, I realize this idea probably is bollocks, as one can't prevent the enemy from camping at the bottom. Editing this text, i realized this could be overcome by providing several exits, or maybe there is another way I just haven't thought of.

The "go down to score" idea on the other hand might actually work. You spawn at the top, fight your way down (and also up a little, but mostly down), grab the flag in free fall, get teleported back on top, and work your way down again to score.

Of course such a design comes with many difficulties: picking a theme (some sort of space station/ship might work), keeping the flow, providing enough open space or hiding places, ... But the benefit would be an unique map which isn't similar to any other Sauer map.

SheeEttin | 2010-10-16 03:54

Interesting concepts... Some of them remind me of UT2004 maps (especially whatever that mode was called that had the ball, where you had to go through a goal to score most of the points, and there was almost always something that killed you behind it).

I'm actually working on a CTF map in response to this thread. It's not exactly vertically-oriented, though, more multi-level. Here is a screenshot (the roof has been alpha'd and skylight added so you can actually see things). The flags are in the middle, separated by glass. You work your way out, going either upstairs onto the roof or downstairs, around a few things, then back up or down, around again, and back into the center. (I'm also thinking about a teleporter on the middle level on each end, all the way at the edge of the map. But I don't know about that.)
I don't know what to do for obstacles on the roof, though (besides that structure with the healthboost on it). Suggestions?

Jorge | 2011-04-18 14:07

Hey SheeEttin,

sorry, I somehow missed your response and just digged out this thread again. Did you do additional work on your concept? It is difficult for me to figure out what you have in mind from your screenshot and explanation. Could you upload the map as work in progress, conceptual or pre-alpha anywhere? (That is, of course, if you are still interested in pursueing this idea)

Greaserpirate | 2011-04-24 20:22

Here's an idea: a "parallel universe" CTF map. You start with a large arena with a flag in the center. Then you make a duplicate of the arena directly underneath the original and add some changes so players know which universe is which. The first arena belongs to your team, and the second belongs to the enemy team. Spread out across the map are special gateways that teleport you to the same spot in the other dimension. The closer the gates are to the flag, the harder they are to access.

afroninja | 2011-04-25 02:24

That idea has already been done. Check it out here.

Chasester_aka_you | 2011-04-25 03:08

lolz this map has a interesting gameplay :p

Suicizer | 2011-04-25 14:19

That map would suck badly, since it's probably way easier for the team wich has the base uppest base, to kill or score than the team wich has the lowest base...

There is an exeption on that, wich is that you'll need a really proper map for that. Even tough that's not realistic, since there are no really proffesional mappers in the sauerbraten community (like a mapper wich made maps from cod or crysis, etc).

Greaserpirate | 2011-04-25 22:03

The universes wouldn't be connected except for by the teleports, which just move you to the same spot in the other dimension. Walking through a teleport in that map would be like walking through your door and suddenly finding the world outside to be 500 years in the past. What was once a skyscraper is now a castle, and what were once cars were horse-drawn carriages. Tell me if I'm being confusing.

afroninja | 2011-04-26 04:09

so its almost like the map has a time machine? Ok, so lets take a more realistic map like lets say, suburb. So in this suburb would be many teleports, each leading a different timeframe but still using the same map in the same location. So the houses would be forests, or castles, or commercial buildings. Sounds kind of cool but its seems a little bit too complex for gameplay unless each different theme had their own base for something like capture. A game mode like stockpile would be perfect for this type of game. (For those who dont know what stockpile is, its a game where there are from about 3-8 teams each controlling their base with a flag or two in neutral zones, each team tries to capture as many flags as possible, after each score the flag respawns back in the neutral zone.) In my opinion I think that this game mode should added into a future release, but the main topic here is a CTF map. It would be kind of hard to make a CTF map the way you described it, especially if there is more than two dimensions. But it does sound like a neat idea.

Djakk | 2011-04-26 05:52

@Greaserpirate:
It's funny that you mention this idea. I've currently been in the process of creating a set of these. I'm only in the concept portion of both maps. One is Fission, an ancient/futuristic split, and the the other is HailFire, which, as the name suggests, is a fire/ice split. I've been thinking about entering one of them into the current map contest.

Suicizer | 2011-04-26 07:17

Why everyone comes up with the same idea as I am? I've been working for like 8 months on a map now, wich has 2 worlds (actually 3) split from each other -.-!

Mmeaninglez | 2013-03-26 17:49

Well, I've been working on a pretty much identical idea for about a year, though I'm not really surprised I'm the first to think of it. I'd read this thread before, but never read down the comments this far. Anyway, that's all I had to say I guess. I'll reference this conversation if I ever finish and post the map, because I'd like to see someone make it.

Suicizer | 2013-03-26 22:37

Well, the map turned about way different as intended (evilness) in the first place.